Leadership Tea
The Leadership Tea podcast is where powerful leaders share their journeys, insights, and triumphs through informal conversations about what it takes to reach the executive level. Join us every other Wednesday to be inspired by the unvarnished stories of amazing executives who know what it's like to be "the only" at the table and who have succeeded regardless. They have proven leadership experience in their respective fields, from international affairs to the private sector to academia, and want to help others create their own success stories.
Leadership Tea
Beyond the Teapot: Pouring Principles of Leadership
Have you ever stood at the crossroads of a tough leadership decision? This episode highlights a few principles we have used to navigate complex situations. From ethical dilemmas to strategic choices, we'll share insights we gleaned from our leadership journeys. Listen to our candid discussion on navigating the murky waters of high stakes decision-making, while staying grounded, and leading with empathy.
Your thoughts and participation mean the world to us, so join the conversation on social media or our website. Let's continue crafting a legacy of leadership that celebrates the best in each other.
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Welcome back to the Leadership Tee podcast. In today's episode, shelby and I are reflecting on moments when we faced significant leadership challenges and we needed to stand on business. What were the principles we used to successfully guide us when the way forward was unclear and the risks were high and the consequences of our actions mattered? These tools that we'll discuss today have evolved throughout our careers. What I needed to succeed as an entry-level professional is not necessarily the same skill set I need to command influence and strategic clarity as a senior leader. When you step into a leadership role, you're saying that you're willing to take on the challenges that don't have clear answers. I like to joke about how issues and questions that come to me are often the worst of the worst. The easier stuff gets solved at lower levels. So when it's time to take on the big challenges, what's in your toolkit? Is it time to take an inventory and make a few updates? I hope you enjoy today's insights and remember our comments and views are solely our own. Shelby and I are only representing ourselves and we're not representing our respective organizations.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining us on today's episode of the Leadership Tea. Stay connected on our website or Instagram. Keep an eye out for announcements about upcoming Instagram live events. We will begin hosting every other Sunday on or about 5pm Eastern. So let's get into the episode. So today, we thought we would just share some of our lessons from the successes we've had as leaders and what we feel we've done well. And before we dive in, I feel like I should acknowledge that I'm feeling a bit under the weather, and so you know, I know that my voice may sound a little different than it normally does, but I'm doing my best. I do have my tea next to me, so Absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's great, cool. But let's jump right in, belinda, and I thought we would share a couple of leadership values or best practices that we have adopted over time. We've heard a lot of you ask us how have we been able to have successful careers, and we thought that we would just share a couple of tips. So each of us is going to share two of our own individual tips for leadership, and then we'll share one that we have in common, and then we'll just take the conversation from there. So, belinda, do you want to go ahead and get started with?
Speaker 1:your two. Yeah, I will, and I'll just start this show by saying something we've talked about a lot and this idea that we have both been put in situations I won't say situations like leadership roles where we are asked to ask people to do a lot like really hard things, seemingly impossible things To do a compensation or nothing, reward for extra whatever.
Speaker 1:And because and we've just had to develop a really, I would say, weighty toolkit to be able to make that happen right, to get people to do the impossible under really difficult terms and sometimes people who are questioning why we're even their leader in the first place to be able to say, okay, I've got you, I need you to do this and for people to want to do it and to do it well and to execute. Over the years, I tried to develop a style where I constantly asked myself, when presented with a problem from my team or just in general, what is the real problem here? Yeah, right, and then the interpersonal issue. People would come to me and say, hey, I'm not getting along with so and so Can you change my team or change this or that? I could, but what is the real problem, right? Is it just that you don't like their face, or is it actually like?
Speaker 2:Is there something deeper going on?
Speaker 1:And so peeling back the layers of the problem, getting people to go deeper when they're explaining an issue to you, taking time to think, and I guess, right, that goes along with it. I learned this observing a senior leader once who I had to deliver really bad news to, and that person said I'll be back in two minutes. It was like wild, it was like very insane news that I had to deliver Okay, and the person's like I'll be back in two minutes. And so I did in exactly two minutes and this person was like okay, do this, do this, get this person call that, write this memo. Like the person took a moment to collect themselves to think about what is the real issue here? Who are all the people that really need to be involved? What are all the things I should be doing to solve this or move the ball forward and now let's take action.
Speaker 1:I think that's how you get to like operational excellence and so, combining all of that, that is just a question. I'm constantly sitting at my desk asking, like what's the real issue? So the other piece that kind of leads into that, the kind of second idea, is I say something, that I stop often and listen, and that's somewhat connected, but that actually is more about me and I'm making the right. This is kind of thinking more overall about my career. Am I making the right moves? Am I making the right decisions? I often encounter people who are just in this kind of frantic space of overplanning or over thinking their careers and we don't take enough time to just stop Whatever that stop looks like for you maybe stop and take a jog, stop and go to the gym, stop and meditate, stop and pray like just stop, Stop. Often.
Speaker 2:Yes, can I take a breath now?
Speaker 1:And just listen to yourself, to your village, to the universe, Like I don't think I did that enough early on. I let momentum carry me, so that worked out, you know, like it's fine. But I wonder also, you know, could I have arrived in the same space but in a different state If I had listened more and stopped more often for myself? So those are two things that I would, I would throw out there. What about you?
Speaker 2:I first just want to acknowledge what you said about stop. Often it resonates so much with me because right now I feel like it's it's a combination of having the luxury of stopping more but also just being more intentional about stopping more to take in everything and to not feel so rushed. And I think the pandemic helped me with that, because we were all forced to not be in such a rush when everything just kind of shut down. But I think with my mentees right now, a few of them are in such a hurry and I find myself telling them listen, stop rushing, take your time, don't rush to peak. You have time, don't rush to peak.
Speaker 1:Don't rush to peak.
Speaker 2:So, anyway, I just wanted to put a put a little bit note there. I love that. Yeah, the stop resonates For me. The two things that I want to share one of them is owning mistakes, and this is something that one of our joint mentors kind of implanted in me, particularly years ago, when she came up with this frame of reference called self-inoculation, and really what that meant was own your mistakes. You know, own the mistake when it happens, acknowledge it, don't repeat it, figure out what you're learning from that mistake and move on. And that was just so powerful. I saw it modeled, you know, in a particular work environment and by this leader, and it was something that I vowed to continue doing. You know, no matter what role I was in, and it has helped me.
Speaker 2:There's nothing more powerful than seeing someone who has any position of authority or position of power, any leadership role, admitting when they're wrong. It's not a sign of weakness. You admit when you've made a mistake. You admit when you've made a mistake, you own it, you learn from it and you keep it moving. You don't wallow in the mistake. You don't stay in a state of despair because you screwed up. Everyone screws up and for me, it makes me respect people more when they acknowledge yo, my bad, I messed that up. This is what we're going to do, moving forward, it's not going to happen again, and I've had to do that as a leader and I think that builds credibility and respect and trust from your team when they can see, okay, the boss admitted that they made a mistake and they're sharing what they learned from that mistake so that we can all learn and then we move on. That has definitely helped me in my career. And then I think related to that is the gift of feedback. There's something that I call correct softly, which is one of my leadership principles, and that means, you know, call out people when they make mistakes. Some people don't realize when they're screwing up. Some people do, and that's a different problem when people know that they're messing up and they're not doing anything about it.
Speaker 2:But sometimes you have people who genuinely have no idea that they're doing something wrong or that there's something about their performance that could be improved. And I'll give an example there was someone who was lobbying me for a position. I was in a role where I was building a team and this person really wanted to be on the team Very bright, completely capable, super smart, and for me, in the spaces where you and I have worked, belinda, the baseline assumption is that people are smart, everyone's smart. So what do you bring into the table in addition to your intelligence? I need people who can get along with each other because, as you said, we've worked in some pretty high stakes environments, in pressure cookers, where you are having to make snap decisions. There's a lot at stake and you really need people to bring their A game in various shades of gray and you don't want any dead weights on your team People who are self-absorbed, self-centered, etc.
Speaker 2:And this individual had a reputation, earned or not, from some of their peers, where their peers were like I don't know if this is going to be the right fit for the team, and I took that to heart, and so I didn't offer them the position and I gave them feedback as to why. And the individual told me you know, no one has ever shared that I have interpersonal issues or that people were perceiving me in that way. So thank you for doing that. I think we, just as leaders or as individuals, you know when you're building teams or supervising others, you take it for granted that people automatically know everything about how they're presenting themselves or what they're doing In office situations, and sometimes they don't, and, as a leader, it's up to you to give feedback when people are knocking it out of the park and when they're not, and so that's helped me quite a bit. Yeah, I know I will hardly agree with both of those.
Speaker 1:You know the first point, that idea of being able to say to people okay, this thing happened Because, yes, I got it from the same mentor, you were correct, because I'm the one that messed up. But having someone say to me, okay, you like royally messed up, we're gonna fix it, what did you learn? How will we not repeat that again? That was like life changing, Like nobody had ever said that in the workplace before. For me, it's definitely something that I took and I used the rest of my you know opportunities to do so.
Speaker 2:I have always like someone's spirit, Like yeah, don't be mean or vindictive.
Speaker 1:No, it's just like okay, that happened. All right, you know, one team, one fight, right, I probably could have Somewhere in there helped you out, and anyway, it it happened, how are we not going to do it again? All right, cool, cool, cool, let's make the adjustment not overcorrect, right, which is also critical. Yeah, and then move forward and the key here and so I will let this go Like I'm not going to hold this against you, right, right, I don't want to talk about it again Like we're all going to learn from it. Now, if we're back here after we got all did all this, we're going to have a problem. For now, I'm willing to move forward.
Speaker 1:I just I feel like I have not a lot, but I've encountered leaders who almost pride themselves on holding a grudge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like what does that get you? What does that help? What we people are human.
Speaker 1:They are going to make mistakes. Our systems across organizations are often weak and not user friendly, right Right, and our processes are vague. Of course people are going to mess up, right?
Speaker 2:We don't always train and support people the way that we should.
Speaker 1:So like we're not always staffed properly, like there's always a lot of people who are not really always staffed properly, like there's a lot of room for error, yeah, we can minimize it, but I don't know if we can demand or just judge people for that lack of perfection. And then on your comment about feedback, I agree and I was also thinking to myself, so I guess these two comments are tied about feedback is important, but feedback with thought and consideration, not like quick judgment. All right, I remember I had a boss who people warned me. You know, basically you better make a good first impression because this person decides the first time they meet you what they think of you and then that is it. It's like I don't know, maybe I will have had a bad day, maybe like I don't know.
Speaker 2:That's a little thing could have happened.
Speaker 1:That seems odd, that seems rather intense. And I was, as you were talking, I was thinking back to an experience a few years ago where I was doing introductory calls with, like, my new team and I was reaching perhaps deeper into the organization than maybe I should have for these intro calls, and so I was meeting with this person. He's in my office, he was a mental manager with a really critical role, and we're talking, we're having a good conversation, and he says, hey look. So before I go, I just want to let you know that this is kind of a second career for me. I left my first career because I was burned out and I basically intend to dial it in. It was wild to me. I never heard anyone say that.
Speaker 2:I didn't know how to receive that, wow, okay.
Speaker 1:He was like yo, at five o'clock I'm out At you know 70, 80, and whenever I get here I'm going to give you 100% during the workday, but evening, some weekends, I'm not here for you.
Speaker 2:I'm not necessarily trying to do extra.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to do what I need to do. I'm not trying to get promoted. I'm not trying to get promoted. I didn't know how to receive that Like do you feel comfortable saying that to me, your boss is boss, is boss because you don't respect me? Who says that? Should I be nervous about you? Who doesn't work hard? Oh my goodness. So I initially kind of like I was like all right, let's see how that goes. Also, if I call you on the weekend, I need you to pick up the phone because obviously it's a thing. Why, why Pick? I don't want to call you on the weekend, but if I do, it's like a thing, so you should answer.
Speaker 1:I learned very quickly that that person was actually one of our best managers, one of our best employees, and when we hit a real crisis, like a real crisis, where lives were on the line Clutch, clutch and what I learned was right it goes back to my point of what's the real problem. Right, he thought he was doing was protecting himself, because he had had abusive bosses before who took advantage of him being a great employee and constantly called on him for things and burned him out and took away time that he had in his personal life, and so he felt like he needed to put a very hard boundary, no matter what the consequences, because he wasn't going to go through it again and he didn't know what I was going to bring to the table Right, wow. But I could have walked away from that conversation like yo, so-and-so, it's lazy, he's got to go, like no, all kinds of judgment.
Speaker 1:Literally one of the best people I've ever worked with. That's amazing. So it's like it shows all of it. What's the bigger problem? Don't judge too quickly. Right? And like I said, I was like he said all that and I didn't say like absolutely not, I'm calling, I was just like OK, but ha ha, ha, for real, you're going to be when I call you right. When I call. You're going to have to answer, though, but I get it. I'll only call if it's a real emergency. Also, don't call me unless it's a real emergency.
Speaker 2:How about that?
Speaker 1:But for real, for real, and so right, we didn't leave that meeting in a contentious way. And so I think just so much of when you're managing a large team with lots of different personalities and people are bringing lots of different things to the table. You really have to amp up your EQ. You have to, you have to right, you obviously have to have a high IQ to be dealing with all that's happening. Do you really have to lean into the EQ? Because that's going to bring you the common sense to bring the best out of people, and what brings the best out of different leaders on your team is going to be a little different calculation for everybody and that's exhausting, but that's what the job is yeah, that's right, that's what leadership calls for.
Speaker 2:And on that point, on the EQ point, the other thing about feedback and everything that we're talking about, and even in your example of how you responded to this employee, timing is everything, in the sense of you don't have to have a knee-jerk reaction to everything that is occurring around you and sometimes we're so quick, like I got to respond to that thing right now when, like, no, maybe you need to sleep on that, maybe you don't need to say something so quickly, maybe that's a conversation even in giving feedback, the example that I gave, the feedback that I gave to this individual, it wasn't after we had our interview.
Speaker 2:It was months later when I felt that they were in a place where they could receive what I had to say. And that's not to say that you have to wait months. In every situation. You have to use your judgment in figuring out when is the right moment to give feedback. But my point is it's not always immediate and timing is everything. Whether you're giving feedback, whether you are, I don't know. Timing is important and you just have to be confident of when you're having critical conversations and when is the person going to be ready to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 1:Right, and so I would say building on that EQ is not something EQ at the executive level yes, it's not something you can just turn on one day like, well, I'm in this role, now I better start. It is something that you have got to practice throughout your career and build on and grow. And it goes back to something you and I have talked about a bit what you do in practice, you do in the game. Yes, eq is how do you treat the janitor when you walk in the building, and I always like to pride myself, I think, on being able to develop relationships with everyone at all levels in the workplace. Yeah, and it has always stood out to me when people have not done the same.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, yeah. I think that's an excellent segue into our shared leadership value principle, which is kindness, being kind to everyone. It's something that I shared with my team recently. I'm in the process of transitioning positions and as I was leaving, it was a reminder that I articulated to the people that were asking me what kind of advice do I have? What is something that's important to me? And I told them to be kind, be kind to everyone, without any expectation of that individual being kind to you, without trying to game in your mind who is this person and how can they help me? Are they a rank? Do I need to treat this person a certain way? None of that is important, and I once read a quote that the definition of character is how you treat people who can do nothing for you.
Speaker 2:And that is something that is really, really important to me and I would say, as I've grown into different leadership roles in executive positions, it is something that is tested, because sometimes people assume that kindness as a sign of weakness and I've really had to fight against perceptions of me not being as strong or whatever perceptions or definitions that other people have of what executive leadership looks like. Sometimes it's at direct odds with being kind, and yet kindness has always worked for me. It's underrated, it's an underrated leadership attribute that has always, always worked for me, as I know it's worked for you.
Speaker 1:I just completely agree that just the messaging we get from society is we take care of ourselves. Me and mine. I've got to figure out how I can get ahead, what can I do to show my advantage, my leverage, and so when you integrate empathy and kindness into that, it's actually a bit rebellious.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right and you're actually an outlier, and so it is hard to be kind. So I think I have always tried to be very conscious of that and to understand that as I gain greater and greater responsibility and influence that, even in subtle ways even when I think I'm just choking or oh, I did that thing, but it's not that important People are constantly looking to you for signs about what is our culture going to be, what are we going to stand for? And one of the things they're looking for are we gonna be like we're gonna be kind or are we gonna be cutthroat?
Speaker 2:Yeah right, Everything you say and do, it matters.
Speaker 1:It matters. You know, yeah, I have said there's been moments where I've lost my temper and I've said again, not yelling or anything, but like snarky yeah and snarky Yep. The people really react, especially when it's out of your norm.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is definitely a consequence of being kind, because when you do get upset or when things are not going well or not up to your standards and you let people know, it's like whoa, what's happening? It's like, no, what's happening is I'm a human being and I'm having a reaction because I'm pissed off and I'm allowed to be pissed off even if I'm kind.
Speaker 1:I mean, like I get it, and so I have actually learned to like warn people, like, hey, we're having fun today, but for real, for real, like we need to get this thing done in this way by this state. Right, it won't be as fun, you know, if we don't.
Speaker 1:So I can say that to you with respect. Yeah, but let's be clear, but we can still have consequences. Right here are the consequences I will face consequences those have like a downward trend, like yeah. So it's a hard balance, but I think it's something to always strive for and, like I said, if you just do it in every respective life, you don't have to worry about all this other stuff.
Speaker 2:You really don't.
Speaker 1:You really don't.
Speaker 2:And I think that's where people get tripped up, because they're overthinking things. This is what we were talking about earlier. If we just had some basic advice to give people because we're both asked for advice all the time and I would just say, no matter what your role is, remember to just do your job. Just get the fundamentals down, stop overthinking, stop overanalyzing in your head, oh, if I do it this way, and then if I do this thing, and then within the next you know year, five years, 10 years, I'm going to do this, this, this, this, and there's absolutely. I want to be clear.
Speaker 2:There is nothing wrong with that. I want to be clear. There is nothing wrong with having goals and objectives. We all do. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But where I see people trip themselves up is in the day to day, where they're just constantly grinding and thinking and overanalyzing and looking at what you know this person is doing and that person is doing, and they completely lose sight of the thing that they're supposed to do. Just the basic responsibilities of their current function get lost in the sauce because they're thinking about a million other things that just don't matter in that moment.
Speaker 1:It goes back to stop. Often, listen Right, like when you find yourself getting caught up in I've got to get ahead, I've got to do this thing. Okay, oh so, and so is leaving the organization, so so and so is going to move into that spot. And then I'm moving to the spot Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. Strip it down. Like how can I just, how can I keep this simple? Like I would like to one day be an X. You know what, fundamentally, I need to do the work, manage my team, you know, and also demonstrate that EQ.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, and demonstrating that EQ doesn't mean I have to be some kind of like super amazing, just like political player. Yeah, does not mean like, in fact, that will often bring you into the mess. It's like how can I find this balance? Again, these are hard things that take leaving on your village, talking through with people and staying grounded. But, like, how do I find this balance between knowing the drama and not being the drama? Yes, doing the work, getting to where I would like to be, also while remaining a bit flexible, and it's there's like no magic formula. People often come to me with some seeking similar advice and I'm like, when I left grad school, I no longer had syllabi. There's no syllabus that says if you read this, read this, write this paper and raise your hand 10 times and show up on time, 90% of the time you will get.
Speaker 2:X, you're right. No matter where you are in life, no matter what job you're doing, what career path you select.
Speaker 1:That is so true, and the best things that have come to me have been when I was just kind of doing the work, not being a jerk, right, knowing the drama but not being the drama right, so it's being aware of the politics, playing them a little bit, but not like stirring the pot, yeah exactly. And then doors open. Doors open that you didn't know were even there. Right, opportunities present themselves that you didn't even know were an option, and you're like oh well, let me walk through this door, yeah so, but you have to be flexible and yeah, and I guess I would just say on that, on that piece as well, like in that, that political piece, that knowing the drama and not being the drama piece, there's like I guess it's a whole other podcast.
Speaker 1:I was like, right, I was going also like understanding that breakdown of performance versus image, versus, you know, perception, yeah and, and folks often get that formula wrong, but anyway, that's a whole different.
Speaker 2:That's a different episode. Yeah, or footnote or something, yeah.
Speaker 1:We'll make a note.
Speaker 2:And then we'll get back to that.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, look, I feel like we have time for one more thing and, yeah, you want to dive into it. I feel like you have it framed better than I do.
Speaker 2:So one of the things that we were thinking about as part of this conversation and this dialogue is what is the thing that has anchored you when you have felt isolated? Because sometimes, when you're in these leadership roles and you have a lot of responsibility, it can feel really lonely, yeah. So what do you do in those moments?
Speaker 1:So I'm going to say that not making decisions in a vacuum or not experiencing your experience or your emotions in a vacuum, because leadership is often lonely and isolating and sometimes you can just be at a place where you're letting that pressure compound, compound, compound until you make a snap decision that you probably wouldn't have normally or, if you had bounced it off of people, wouldn't have done it that way.
Speaker 1:So I guess that was a really roundabout way of saying talk to your village, right, like pick up the phone, like contact, and just engage with people who you know they don't have to know all the details of whatever, but who you can be a sounding board, and I think that often puts you in the right direction. I know that I need social contact, right, I need it, and I have been in spaces where I didn't have it and it was to my detriment, and so I had to work harder to create those spaces and other things fell into alignment. So I would just say that ensuring that you have a rich network that you can lean into and ensuring that that network isn't just simply an echo chamber of negativity, yes, yes, for real, for real, because you don't want to be in a downward spiral, especially if you're already feeling isolated, like that is counterproductive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I don't know about you, but I've had friends where it's like, you know, you talk to them one day and they're like, yeah, things are a little tough at work. And then you talk to them a few weeks later and they're like I quit my job and sold my house. Whoa, you're like whoa wait, that was a lot. What happened, what happened? So it's like, before we get there, maybe that is the right decision, but we should have bounced that off some people. Yeah, exactly Right, exactly. What about you?
Speaker 2:I think I would say and I've been guilty of this at times, and I think you have to because we've talked about it when you become so intertwined with your work, with your career, that the job becomes everything, and the thing that I've learned over time in terms of figuring out ways to stay resilient when I have felt isolated, is to think about my identity outside of my profession. Who am I, apart from the work? And this is challenging, right, because you want to give your all, the two of us in particular. I think we've been commended over time because we have been dedicated and committed to whatever roles we were in all in, for our teams being there, being fully present, being all about the mission, and yet, at the same time, it's really important to know who you are outside of that thing, and it's something that I've been working on recently, like what is your hobby?
Speaker 2:Having a hobby, having a life apart from your profession, is critical, I think, in helping to counter feelings of isolation, whether it's for me. I've been reading a lot more reading as a hobby. Reading is something intertwined with work, but reading things that I enjoy, things that bring me pleasure, has been important for me. Exercising, just having things, having outlets outside of work to manage the isolation and, of course, I co-sign on everything that you said in terms of having a village and staying connected. But again, I think part of that is also forming an identity and knowing yourself and being comfortable with who you are outside of the job.
Speaker 1:I totally agree, and I think that, as we've talked about, for me, the isolation, both professionally and personally, of the pandemic really brought home that I had no hobby and I needed something to focus on outside of the pressures of work and the pressures at home, and so I have vowed to not let that happen again and to enjoy freedom of movement. But no, I agree with everything you said. I love it. Well, I feel like this was a lot. It was a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're giving the people something to sip on, okay, and something to ponder.
Speaker 1:As always, it was fun to chat. Yes.
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