Leadership Tea
The Leadership Tea podcast is where powerful leaders share their journeys, insights, and triumphs through informal conversations about what it takes to reach the executive level. Join us every other Wednesday to be inspired by the unvarnished stories of amazing executives who know what it's like to be "the only" at the table and who have succeeded regardless. They have proven leadership experience in their respective fields, from international affairs to the private sector to academia, and want to help others create their own success stories.
Leadership Tea
Pouring Into Your Power While Brewing Integrity
When Emily Haber, the former German ambassador to the United States, shares her wisdom, you know it's time to sit up and listen—and that's exactly what we did in this discussion about advocacy and allyship. This was a transformative discussion and Emily shared a number of important lessons with us. Her narrative is a testament to the courage required in any professional journey.
Emily embodies leadership's true essence - responsibility, adaptability, and a steadfast commitment to lifting those who are most vulnerable. Today's episode is a message for anyone looking to steer their own ship with integrity and success.
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I never forgot the lesson that if you think about power, you may get substance wrong. It can be a weakness if you put power first.
Shelby:Hey everyone. It is so important to have broad networks. For Belinda and me, this also means having a variety of mentors, who each bring something different to the table. In a previous episode, you heard us chat with our mentors, who we affectionately call the uncles. They shared some gems about building relationships with their mentees, so check it out if you haven't already. But in this episode we sip wisdom with former German ambassador to the United States, emily Haber. I was assigned as her mentee during my fellowship with the International Women's Forum and to outside observers we might seem like an unlikely pair, but she has played a pivotal role in my leadership journey.
Shelby:Sometimes you need someone who can shine a light on the potential simmering in you that you just can't see in yourself. Emily did that for me. She has spent her career wielding power for good, being conscious of biases and modeling how authority and vulnerability are not mutually exclusive. I can't wait for you to hear the wisdom she drops in this episode, pouring into your power while brewing integrity. So let's get into it and hear directly from Emily. One of our recent episodes we focused on mentorship, where we chatted with two of our women leaders. We're wondering about your experience. How have you been mentored and is there someone who has been instrumental as a mentor in your own career?
Emily Haber:When I entered the German Foreign Service, I was part of a crew of 30. There were three women in it. If I look back, I don't see any woman in a leadership position that would have been in the place to actually mentor me. Also, the system of mentorship didn't exist at the time. This doesn't mean that I didn't have people that influenced me deeply and shaped me.
Emily Haber:To give you one of the examples, one of the people I really admired was my first boss on the Soviet desk and then in the embassy in Moscow, and one day he said to me it's not a sign of good education if you accept and acquiesce with people who are rude with you or cross boundaries. I don't even remember the context and I don't remember why he said it, but I understand why he said it. The subtext of it basically was if people overstep boundaries, if they're higher ranked than you are, if you think you're not in a place to actually push back, you're wrong. You need to tell them stop. You need to be courageous, and he was a person with a courage of legendary proportions. I think from him I have learned that you need to speak out, whatever your rank is. You need to say stop, wherever you are in the hierarchy. It takes courage sometimes, but that's what you need to do, and certainly in the Foreign Service.
Belinda:Thank you for that. Building on this idea of mentorship in the US, we've had an ongoing conversation nationally about advocacy and allyship in the workplace as your career has progressed. Have you considered this idea of allyship in the workplace as your career has progressed? Have you considered this idea of allyship and what does it mean in the German or the European context?
Emily Haber:It exists as an English word, as so often happens with concepts that come along with a conversation that started earlier somewhere else in this case in the United States that started earlier somewhere else in this case in the United States. So if I have to explain allyship to people who haven't heard the English language concept, I think there's several layers I would have to explain. The first one is speak out for people who are in marginalized positions or are immigrants or have a background that is underprivileged and so forth. But that's only part of it. There's a different layer to it too, and that comes with a longer history and a baggage of history.
Emily Haber:Actually, the other day I read a book by a former German diplomat, one of the leading diplomats of the last century. He had grown up in Estonia as an Estonian citizen in the 1930s, and in his memoirs he describes the environment of the time and then in one chapter and mind you, we're not talking about Germany, we're talking about Esplania he, with astonishment captures the anti-Semitism that he simply grew up with. And he doesn't know. He writes in the book where did he hear these prisms and the names? And he doesn hear these prisms and the names and he doesn't remember. His parents told him he doesn't remember the schools told him it's just that he grew up with a bias that he didn't recognize as bias, but he was infused with it and with the experience of the Holocaust, of course, the bias was totally disclosed. It was open to everyone what the bias could lead to.
Emily Haber:But I think that humans grow up with we all do with biases. We grow up in groups. I think we are wired that way from ancient times and we need to realize it and we need to unlearn the bias, we need to deconstruct it and that has effects on how we relate to groups that we consider other. We are wired in a way that, as I said, is probably pre-modern and we're wired in a way that doesn't fit the hyper-connectedness of our mobility and communication society and we need to work on that and everyone needs to work on that. And I think for people that have grown with the natural sense of privilege, it's even more important to understand what bias has done. And actually, even if you work on the bias and if you realize it, there's still structures in place and procedures in place that have been shaped long ago by the bias and are still shaped in a way not to reproduce them, but reproduce advantages and disadvantages. Does that make sense to you?
Belinda:That makes perfect sense to me. Have you observed spaces in your work, in your workplace, where it's possible to provide that support? What skills have you drawn on to do that?
Emily Haber:have you drawn on to do that? I think the fact that I for a very long time was always visibly an outsider in a very male-dominated environment helped me realize the sub-in and the minimal invasive discriminations that simply happen and I was very sensitive to it and I made sure that I tried to make sure not to contribute to an environment that was permissive. In that sense, I tried to support in my system women. I tried to support people that did not come with a natural advantage. I thought that was my responsibility and this was something I had to give back because I was lucky enough to actually achieve leading positions in my system.
Shelby:A lot of what you've said has resonated with me in terms of giving back and making sure that your conscience of bias and not permitting that in the environments that you've worked in, and so we are wondering, as someone who has been in significant positions of leadership and power, how do you make room for vulnerability, to allow people to be vulnerable without appearing weak? Because sometimes I think people equate vulnerability with a sign of weakness, when it can really be used for good, and we're wondering how have you made room for vulnerability in the positions that you've had?
Emily Haber:Yeah, I think you're right that humans tend to think that weakness or the display of vulnerabilities is mutually exclusive with power, and I might have thought so in my younger days too. But there were two experiences that really stayed with me, and I'm quite sure, shelby, I must have told you one of them. But I'll start with the first one, and that was, I think, in 2004. A survivor of the genocide in Rwanda had been invited to the German Foreign Ministry by colleagues of mine and she told her story and I was there.
Emily Haber:I was seated in the front row, I believe, and as she told her story, which was so compelling, I tried the entire time I was terribly embarrassed at this because I felt it was such a stereotype, and also the survivor spoke with a nearly preternatural calm, with a great deal of dignity.
Emily Haber:It wasn't the first time, certainly, that she told the story, and it was palpable that it was her mission to tell the story, to make the world remember and to tell people like me what it means if you look away or if you don't look at all, and that this comes with consequences and they're terrible. And then at some stage, as she did, she started to speak just to me because she felt and she said so that she was being heard and that's what she wanted as a survivor and for her family that had been slaughtered and for her friends that had been murdered. It needed to be heard and she felt it was heard and this remained with me. And the second moment that changed me in how I think about power and weakness and the display of vulnerability is a moment when I was already in a senior position, perhaps in my early 50s, and I was in a leadership seminar. Did I tell you this story? I don't remember this one.
Emily Haber:There were two groups of leading German diplomats, all in my rank and one rank higher, all men, two groups of about eight to ten people. I was the only one. I was the only one, and we were given a task which we were in, which was very important for the elevation of what we did. We were given a task to determine I think it was the temperature of bird that had been frozen. It was a lot of physics to it. And we were asked to choose a leader, and I was chosen a leader immediately.
Emily Haber:I sensed that here again, the implicit bias of the men was here's the woman who thinks she's awfully clever, let's see how she will deal with physics. And so we started the evaluation. We had eight set of questions and we went through the first set of questions, came to the second one and then suddenly someone in the group actually a friend of mine said no, we have to go back to point one. There was the question. We should have done that and I had a sense that here that's the moment when he questions my authority. I hit back, it was over and we proceeded and there was no new challenge to my authority.
Emily Haber:In the end we got it wrong. We got the temperature wrong. And you know why we got it wrong? Because I hadn't allowed the question, because I had placed authority before substance, and that's I never forgot that. I never forgot the lesson that if you think about power, you may get substance wrong and that may have consequences. So if you have an authority problem while discussing substance, defer the authority issue and concentrate on substance. Otherwise you'll get it wrong. What I try to say is it can be a weakness if you put power first.
Shelby:It can be a weakness if you put power first, right.
Belinda:That's really powerful. It really strikes me and, as you think about those lessons that you've just highlighted for us, are there contexts or spaces where you were able to implement those lessons? When did you encounter something that was extremely difficult or hard in your career and you needed to draw upon that courage and that wisdom to prevail?
Emily Haber:I think the toughest time I had during my professional life was when I served in the Interior Ministry that's the equivalent of Homeland Security in the US during the migration crisis, which also coincided with a number of years where we had seen severe terrorist attacks in Germany, and at that time I had to handle extremely complex questions that, where I had to, it was an Olympian balancing act.
Emily Haber:It was the permanent sense I had that you cannot do it right by everyone. There was the humanitarian side to the immigration refugees fleeing from countries where they were oppressed, where there were civil wars. There was the public reaction, the growth of an anti-immigrant party. There was the fact that ISIS had sent on the refugee routes people who committed terrorist attacks, who came disguised as, if you will, in the guise of refugees, which they were not. They were actually sent as sleepers who then proceeded to commit terrorist attacks. So you see, there were incredible moral dilemmas that you had to handle at the time, incredible moral dilemmas that you had to handle at the time, and I think what I learned then was you cannot do it right by everyone. If you can't live with compromises that are difficult and where you will fail individual expectations, then do something else, be an activist, work in church. But if you work in the political space, especially in contexts such as I have described, accept that you need to do the right thing, but you will never be satisfied with you completely, because you can't.
Belinda:That reminds me of a famous saying here in the US I think it's Lincoln who said you can't please all of the people all of the time, and speaking about balancing his cabinet of people who didn't necessarily agree with one another, and obviously during the US Civil War, and accepting compromises even if you're deeply unhappy with them, because that is simply the limited space in which you can do the right thing.
Emily Haber:you can do the right thing.
Shelby:And in thinking about doing the right thing. I was just struck by the examples that you shared, because you've obviously been in situations where your integrity has been on the line and as I think about Belinda and I and the positions that we've held and the people that we are trying to reach through this podcast, who may find themselves in dilemmas where what they believe personally isn't necessarily in line with their company's line, or, if they're in government, what the policy might be, whatever the discipline is. Sometimes you find yourself, especially as you're rising through the ranks, where there isn't perfect alignment between your values and what your employer is doing.
Emily Haber:And I'm just yes.
Shelby:How have you managed that in your own career? What advice do you have to share on that Going back?
Emily Haber:to the first boss I had speak, speak out and make. Give the best advice you can do it in the best of conscience. Say stop when you need. To make sure that you just don't shy away from adversity, because that's what leadership is very much about and not being afraid of adversity and embracing responsibility. There will. If there are lines that your conscience tells you you cannot overstep, leave the post, don't do it. I hope you'll never be in a position where you have to draw that conclusion Conscience, responsibility, not shying away from adversity. Be courageous, and you can be courageous in a system. That doesn't mean you will always prevail Of course you won't, but it should not prevent you from speaking out your mind and your experience.
Belinda:I want to take this moment and kind of shift us to our lightning round of questions as we prepare to conclude. My first question is could you tell us about the last book that you read?
Emily Haber:I read. Actually it fits into the conversation we had. I read the Prophet's Song by Paul Lynch. Have you heard about it? It's actually a very popular book. It's very powerful. It's a dystopic novel placed in Europe, about a democratic country sliding into a totalitarian regime, forcing people in this case will not name here and trying to lead the country by boat. It was such a powerful reminder for me of what I had seen, watching it as an outsider, during the refugee crisis in 2015. And this was a story from within and in Europe. It was like stepping into the shoes of those who had come as refugees to Germany, Only suddenly it was a European story. It's a wonderful, it's a chilling book, but it forces you to suddenly see biographies not as an outsider, but as someone who lives with. Actually, it's a form of allyship.
Shelby:I have to pick it up for sure, okay, second question what's your favorite tea? Do you have a favorite tea?
Emily Haber:I'm normally a coffee drinker but I do have a favorite tea which is very difficult to get. Actually it's called um milky oolong, I think it came comes basically from from taiwan, has this wonderful milky taste. But again, it it's very difficult to get and I haven't drunk it in quite some time.
Shelby:That sounds like a tea you would like, Belinda, I know I'm like I got to look into that.
Belinda:I have some contacts there. I'm going to have to reach out to them. I'm trying to get some Awesome. I think our final question is and I think this is.
Emily Haber:we're excited to hear your thoughts on this. We ask people to fill in the blank to the sentence Leadership is Because leadership, different sorts of leadership, are required in different moments of crisis or normalcy, etc. But if you force me to answer, I would say leadership is about accepting and embracing responsibility. Accepting and embracing responsibility, not being afraid of adversity and being ready to reframe questions and vantage points.
Belinda:That's, you've given us a lot to think about. I thank you. I want to thank you so much for joining us today.
Emily Haber:Thank you for including me into this podcast. I enjoyed that very much and I loved meeting you, Belinda, and seeing you again, Shelby.
Shelby:Thank you so much for joining us. As I've said many times, you've had such an impactful presence in my life and I'm just grateful that we were able to bring you on to the podcast and have you share with our listeners. So thank you, thank you.
Belinda:Hey everyone, it's Belinda. Throughout this episode, I've thought about these words from Shirley Chisholm, in which she said I've never cared too much what people say. What I'm interested in is what they do. And those are powerful words. One thing's clear our guest Emily. She's a doer in many respects. She's the type of leader who backs up her words with action, even when doing so is not easy and it might appear to make her vulnerable.
Belinda:In my own experience, like Emily, I've attempted to lead with integrity, even when outside pressures have made it difficult to do so. I've made efforts to step up and give a voice to the most vulnerable members of my team or organization. And hey look, sometimes that isn't enough and you fail. And sometimes, in the short term, your efforts at advocacy have a great professional cost. I've experienced that as well. But more often than not, being brave enough to make a suggestion that's out of the box, to bring in people or partners who are not considered to be part of the norm, and advocating for yourself and those around you during the most trying times, well, this all pays dividends in ways that you can't even begin to predict. As a senior leader, you have the power to change the trajectory of someone's career. You shouldn't take that responsibility lightly. It's a privilege. You've earned it due to your judgment and your empathy, so use it wisely. Here's a radical idea. You can deliver results and empower your team at the same time. These two concepts can coexist together. Sit with that for a moment. We can be vulnerable, adaptable and empowering advocates and leaders, but still succeed. Being brave, empathetic and ethical. It brings value to any organization and leading in this way delivers results. And in a world where reputation matters, isn't this the type of character you want to be known for? As Emily said, concentrate on substance and focus less time on power. Well, that's it for this week.
Belinda:We publish new episodes of the Leadership Tea Podcast every other Wednesday. Shelby and I would like to thank you for your continued support. This podcast is a labor of love and we enjoy bringing this content to you. But before you go, we have a couple of things to ask of you. But before you go, we have a couple of things to ask of you. Please take a moment to review our podcast and follow or subscribe to the podcast so you always receive new episodes when they drop. You can learn more about us at wwwstirringsuccesscom and keep up with us in between episodes at leadership underscore T on Instagram. As always. Thank you for listening. We look forward to bringing you more episodes of the Leadership Tea, where we are sipping wisdom and stirring success. Bye.
