Leadership Tea
On Leadership Tea, we talk about what it takes to reach the executive level, and how to thrive when you get there. Powerful leaders share their journeys, insights, and triumphs in conversations with hosts Shelby Smith-Wilson and Belinda Jackson Farrier.
Join us every other Wednesday to be inspired by the unvarnished stories of amazing executives who know what it's like to be "the only" at the table and who have succeeded regardless. They have proven leadership experience in their respective fields, from international affairs to the private sector to academia, and want to help others create their own success stories.
Leadership Tea
Leadership & Risk Management: Empowering Others to Shoot Their Shot | S3 EP8
Belinda and Shelby continue their "Shoot Your Shot" series by exploring the role of risk management when empowering others. They discuss situations when they’ve given team members opportunities to shine, both when it’s led to success and when it has failed. They also share personal stories of how others took a chance on them.
This episode highlights the importance of emotional intelligence, motivation, and trust in identifying when to empower others. Know that leadership involves nurturing the next generation of talent, rather than hoarding opportunities.
In this episode:
- When taking a risk on people failed, and when it worked better than expected
- Trusting your instincts and having uncomfortable conversations
- Discerning whether someone lacks motivation or needs more challenge
- Seeing potential in others and creating an environment where they can thrive
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Hey everyone, welcome to the Leadership Tea podcast, where we not only talk about what it takes to get to the executive level, but how to thrive once you get there. I'm Shelby Smith-Wilson. I'm a government executive, a coach and a budding entrepreneur.
Speaker 2:Hi and I'm Belinda Jackson-Farrier and I'm a former government executive. I'm an entrepreneur and I have a former government executive. I'm an entrepreneur and I have a thriving coaching business.
Speaker 1:We are going to continue a series of conversations that we've been having over the past few weeks about shooting your shot and betting on yourself and what that means in practice the courage that it takes to set goals for yourself, especially when you've been holding back on an idea, on a proposal, you know just building that grit and determination to shoot your shot. And today we're going to talk a little bit about risk management and what it means when you empower someone else to shoot their shot. When you empower someone else to shoot their shot, belinda and I have been in leadership positions where we have both taken risks on someone else. What happens when you allow someone else to shoot their shot and it goes well, and what happens when they miss the basket or they're not even on the field, they're out in the wilderness and things just don't go well. So we're going to dive into that, and I'm going to start by discussing a time when I took a risk on someone and allowed them to shoot their shot and it did not go as well as it could have gone.
Speaker 1:I was a hiring manager for a pretty high level operation and the team that I was assembling were a bunch of high performing individuals at various levels in their career, and there was one person that had not had the same level of expertise as the other people that I was recruiting, but had enough of a skill set where I thought that I would be able to help them fill in the gaps where they were weak. And I felt that the references that I had gotten for this individual were strong enough, that they had shown enough potential to perhaps reach the level of performance that I needed to rise to the occasion, for the demands of the job, and I thought okay, this person is worth taking a risk on, because something that I've learned throughout the scope of my own career is that people have to give you an opportunity to shine and to stretch and to expand yourself beyond the confines of what you are accustomed to doing. Otherwise, there's no room to grow. And, as a leader, it's important to show others that you are willing to take risks, not just when it comes to making certain decisions, but giving other people a chance to rise, giving other people a chance to shine. And so that's what I did with this individual, knowing that they weren't fully ready, knowing that they didn't have everything that they needed to be successful in this position, but that they had enough and that I would help them along the way.
Speaker 1:Fast forward to the person getting into the position, and there were a couple of projects that they were assigned, that they were okay, the results were okay, but they weren't what they could have been. And this individual's interactions with other people, both peers, but also people who were more senior than them those interactions were a little shaky and it was getting back to me that this person just wasn't performing at the level that they needed to be performing, and I pulled them aside. I'm a big believer in giving feedback, particularly if someone is not meeting the mark, and the person was very receptive to the feedback and asked what did they need to do to improve something? And OK, they didn't have a negative reaction, they are responsive and perhaps we can work with this. It's going to be OK. This was a good test case of a conversation that could have gone very wrong, but it didn't, and so I said all right, let's move on. I'm a big believer in you. You point out deficiencies, you course correct, and then you move on. You don't dwell on it, and so that's what I did in this instance.
Speaker 1:But there were other instances where people continued to complain and, in retrospect, even though I took the time to give this person the feedback that they needed and gave them many opportunities to improve, there was a point where it was clear that they just weren't up to the job.
Speaker 1:And I don't know if there was something in my subconscious that felt like I had somehow failed because this person was not performing in the way that we needed them to, and perhaps that is why I didn't take more drastic action in terms of just letting them go. But I didn't. And now I realize that I cost the team optimal performance and I probably cost myself a little bit of my reputation, because other people saw they didn't know that I was taking the time that I was taking behind the scenes in terms of trying to get this person where they needed to be. All they saw was that this person is still on the team and they're dragging the team down. And why isn't Shelby doing something about it? And so I learned you can take risks on a person, but it's really on you to know when it's time to cut bait and let the person go. And again, in retrospect, I probably should have done the needful to find a graceful exit for this person, so that they could be reassigned to a position where they could shine.
Speaker 2:So how have you adjusted subsequently as a result of this experience?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I'm more willing to take more direct action sooner. I took too long to get to a point of letting this person go, and by the time that I got to that point it was already too late. They were going to be moving on soon anyway, and so was I, and I should have taken that action sooner. So I think the big lesson for me is to trust my instincts. If the red flags are there, don't ignore them and be willing to take action. That you know is uncomfortable but necessary.
Speaker 2:How do you prepare yourself for that uncomfortable action?
Speaker 1:Well, during this time period, I had a coach and I was definitely talking to my coach about what to do with this individual, and I actually I remember practicing difficult conversations with my coach. My coach was very good at guiding me through various scenarios and had me role play with them. Imagine that you're having this tough conversation with an employee and let's just get into it, and so that was one thing that I did. Sometimes I write things down, like I write out what I want to say to the person so that my thoughts are organized and to make sure that I stay on point.
Speaker 2:No, I agree with both of those. It's really important, I think, to position yourself so that you can have an opportunity to get the emotion out of it for yourself, exactly Before you have the engagement, exactly Because people will be emotional, and then you have to stay stoic, yes, and not go down that road with them. So, yeah, I get that Both of those make sense. Well, I have a similar story in that I think about this as really learning a lesson, about understanding my own weaknesses, my own leadership style and how that can clash with different personalities. So I've been told, through all of those kind of assessments and things, and also through 360 feedback from folks, that I can have a pace-setting style of leadership. There are things not all things but there are certain things in certain roles that come easy to me. I'm like, obviously, just write the memo and it should take you like 10 minutes, but it might take you two days because it's new to you, right? Take you like 10 minutes, but it might take you two days because it's new to you, right. I have to really consciously remind myself that I get ideas and I'm like yo, let's go, this is innovative, let's do it, and I have to be able to bring people from my big picture ideas to clear guidance and a clear roadmap. So in this case, I was in a position where not just me, my boss and I had a great idea. I still think it's great that idea that had the potential to set a new standard for similar roles throughout our organization, so that was really exciting. Plus, the actual project itself is really going to have an impact with people and the weakest person on my team this particular idea fit into their lane. When I say the weakest person on the team, I actually just to be quite frank. This person was outright trying to do the least, right like I won't say lazy, but they were definitely doing the least. Yet on paper, this person was, frankly, probably a little bit overqualified for the role that they were in. Just looking back, probably why they were underperforming, they were bored, but I've grown as a leader since then.
Speaker 2:I didn't see that at that moment, but I thought that this would be a challenge for this person and really interesting and new. This person really likes doing innovative things that were outside of the mold, so it seemed like they liked the idea. I gave them a team. I thought I had done all the things, that I had been clear about deadlines and clear about the expectations. This had the potential to reach the highest levels of the organization. But another issue clashed with this in that nobody tells the boss the truth, and so you have to constantly work on building trust with the team so that people will burst the bubble for you. So I saw that things were going a little sideways, but, like you in your experience, I just didn't want to. I didn't want to have a difficult conversation. I was kind of hoping it would adjust itself. I was doing light touches to try to readjust, but deep down I knew that wasn't working.
Speaker 2:Simultaneously, the team was seeing all of this and it is eventually the team intervening, having that trust in me, to come and say like, hey, that person, they're not doing the work and it's bringing all of us down. And can we just be real? We like the project, be 100 and reassign it. And so is that what you did? What happened? Oh, no, kept delaying I. Then I dug my no, this is your job and you're going to do the work.
Speaker 2:Everybody else is busy and ultimately, what happened is we pulled off a delayed, over budget, less impactful version of it that required me to get. This is a space where I was like two or three levels above this person, like three, above this person, like three, and it required me to get down and do some work at that level and by the time I had the difficult conversation like everything had blown up. So, like you, I delayed it too late and probably ultimately, because I knew that the only conversation to have at that point was how soon are you packing your bags? Are you leaving with security today? Are you like there was no coming back for this person from this failure? And I think I wrestled for a long time. Did I set them up for success? Did I give them the tools that they needed? Did I keep my door open so they can come to me with problems? And I still stand? And, yeah, I did all that. This person just didn't want to do the work.
Speaker 1:And sometimes that's just it, like you can go above and beyond. You can give the feedback, you can help people with the tools, the training, the orientation to get them up to speed on what you expect of them. You can create a supportive environment in terms of telling the team what you expect of everyone and to help. You know each other, support each other and you still have dead weight.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I agree.
Speaker 1:What do you think that this particular individual took from that experience?
Speaker 2:We had a heart to heart. This person knew that they dropped the ball. They felt that they had allowed outside distractions in their personal life to impact their work. They felt like they hadn't done a good job of communicating that to me, communicating that they needed some accommodations, that there were things happening, but do you think those accommodations would have made a difference?
Speaker 2:No, so I will say I guess that the part I left off is I did ultimately start the process of removing this person from the organization and so I think, with the person better understood at that point that their job was not guaranteed and that I can be a reasonable leader. I'm not going to scream at you, I'm not going to throw things at you, I'm not going to curse you out, I'm not going to treat you bad, and people are so often treated so poorly by leaders that they take that as that me just treating you like a human being Means everything's okay, means everything's okay. And then, when I come in and I'm still not screaming at you I'm just like I asked for X under these conditions. We didn't deliver it. I highlighted for you previously that there would be consequences. Now we are at the consequence stage.
Speaker 1:These are the consequences and people are frequently shocked yeah, but they're still not hearing you because you're not yelling because I'm not yelling, I'm not belittling them, I'm just like one plus one equals two.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're at the two stage, yeah, and so that's where I think this person just realized that oh, belinda's really serious, belinda's really gonna like drop hammers on people. So I think the lesson there for me was that side of me. I can't assume that people just understand it. I have to articulate, articulate it and I have to deliver on it, which is what I learned in the subsequent roles I did. But in that role, in that moment, in that time where I was in my leadership journey, it was hard for me to really act on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's illustrative of where a lot of early leaders are when you're trying to find your philosophy and define what your style is going to be when it comes to dealing with conflict and underperformers or non-performers in this case.
Speaker 2:You really have to accept that you cannot please all of the people all the time. You have to stay true to the mission. Yes, we must deliver X, y and Z and we will do it humanely and with dignity. But I will make you walk the plank if you get in the way.
Speaker 1:And I'm going to hold you accountable.
Speaker 2:It'll be a nice. We'll play some music while you walk the plank. I'll let you have a last meal.
Speaker 1:Give you a cup of water on your way out, but, yes, don't get it twisted.
Speaker 2:Don't get it twisted. Yeah, okay, what has to happen? Puppy agrees, thank you puppy.
Speaker 2:Thank you, puppy. I think switching gears to times where we've taken a chance on folks and they've delivered. My quick example of that would be a time where we just had an unprecedented challenge that there was no playbook for, and I had, in this case, two people one who had documented performance issues prior to my arriving in my role and one who, in their entry conversation with me, their courtesy call with me, literally said I just want you to know that I've worked really hard in the past. I've felt taken advantage by leadership in the past when I've given above and beyond and was not rewarded, and so my current goal professionally is to dial it in. Just so you know, Like I plan to leave at 4.59. I'm gonna give you 100% between nine and 459. But outside of that, don't expect much.
Speaker 1:I'm going to dial it.
Speaker 2:So this is what I was working with, like the unprecedented thing happened. I'm assigning roles to people, we're making things happen, and then I've got this really big challenge and I'm like I know these two people have the skills to take on these things that I need. I really see this in them, but one's underperforming and I think that person's underperforming because they've been under previously unsupportive leadership. I think if I support them, they will step up to the challenge. And the other person I'm like I know you have it in you. You've said you've had it in you, and if I prove that I'm not abusing you and that we need this and this is the context as to why go you will deliver.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you what they totally delivered. They delivered and I was honest with them. I was like, hey, look, I'm asking you to do this, okay, and I'm not sure I should. Here's why I'm concerned. Right, I need you to prove me wrong. And they were like bet, and they did. It. Did it again, not in a demeaning, demoralizing way, just in a we have our backs against the wall. So all I got in my toolkit right now is honesty. Yeah, this is honestly what I need. This is honestly when I need this is honestly when I need it. To be fair, failure is not an option, and I honestly think you can do it, but you actually haven't proven that in the past.
Speaker 1:So dig deep. So then, what was the difference?
Speaker 2:between this example and the one that didn't go so well. The one that didn't go so well, that person wasn't motivated and was waiting me out. In the case of these individuals, they were like dormant seeds that were just waiting for water. It's hard to tell the difference because, again, like I said, one of these people was like yeah, I just went on being lazy, so don't call me which. I could have judged that person right then and said oh, I want to get rid of you as quickly as possible, but I thought that is so crazy. It must be coming from a place of hurt or damage or something. Let me watch you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that's where your emotional intelligence kicked in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is fair, Seriously, and this person and their day to day work. They were respected by their peers. They were respected by their team. They took care of their team. They were up leveling their team. They were delivering not just what I needed in their job, but they were always a couple of steps ahead. They were anticipatory. You know how there was an episode where you and I talked about our like 75% could be other people's 100%.
Speaker 1:Someone else's 100%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's exactly what this person was. Okay, they thought they were dialing it in. Your dial in is still like over 100%. So I was like, if I asked you to actually just temporarily give me what you think is 100%, it's off the charts. And then, with the other person, it just turned out that, yes, they were demoralized from previous leadership, but they had also been in the role a very long time that they were in and they were bored. And so I said I'm going to take a chance on you, I'm going to pull you out of your day to day and I'm going to ask you to do something extraordinary. And they were like, thank goodness, oh, my, yes, you saved me. You saved me. Do I have to go back to that? If I deliver really well on this, could I do this forever? It was like I don't know, are we going to be here tomorrow? I don't know, but let's see. So that's what I experienced.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you touched on something that I think is critical really in both examples, and that's motivation. Like even in the employee who claimed to only be dialing it in and his 70% was still someone else's 100%. I think you were right to tune into the fact that all of the other data points suggested that this person was not lazy, that they were capable, that they were supportive, they were a supportive teammate and if, given the right opportunity and the right circumstances, that they would deliver, and that perhaps something terrible had happened to them in the past that had tainted their motivation and you were able to see through that and I think that's critical that's really when circumstances like that, when your emotional intelligence kicks in it, can make all the difference in helping you decide who to take risks on and how to help people shoot their shot.
Speaker 2:People tip their hat in conversations all of the time. They give little tells. At that comment about I've done the most before and I've been taking advantage and I've never gotten awards and I didn't get bonuses. I didn't get. I'm just going to do the bare minimum. I was like, oh okay, so we just need to build trust. Yeah, and when I ask you to do something extraordinary, I need to be honest about here's the timeline, here's the whatever and what the other side of it looks like. Yeah, that's so what about you?
Speaker 1:I'm yeah, my other example involves someone who was motivated, someone who was green but I could tell was up for the challenge and was just waiting for something more challenging to do, who did her work. And again, it was one of those situations where it's like her 70% was someone else's 100. And I could tell that she was getting bored. She liked her job. She liked being with other people, working with other people. She had great relationships within our office unit and with other offices that we interacted with. She did her work. Her work was high quality, efficient, timely. She did her work. Her work was high quality, efficient, timely. She was looking around the corner, as you said about your other employee, in anticipating what I would need, what my boss would need, what my boss's boss would need, and she was just very diligent in everything that she did. And so when we had an opportunity to support a high level visit, I thought, ok, she is just the person that we need in terms of handling a lot of the logistics for the visit. And this was a visit that involved multiple heads of state, including our own, and she had never worked on a visit of this scope and initially she was like, whoa, wait, you want me to do what With who, when, how, like. I'm not up for this, but I'm, like sure you are. You've had a whole track record of delivering on a day-to-day basis. I've seen your work in action. You've already given me the goods. You've already shown me the receipts that you can do this by the sheer fact that you are motivated, you are hardworking, you treat people with respect, you anticipate people's needs before they articulate them to you. That's exactly what we need in this role that I have in mind for you to support this visit, for you to focus on the logistics and bring people together, other people who have also not worked this level of a visit before. But I feel that I have seen you in action, to again have the trust in you that you will rise to the occasion and if there is something that you need, if there is something that you can't do, I also trust that you will raise that with me, that you won't sit in isolation and struggle and drown in tasks that are just so overwhelming to you that you end up messing up. I know that you have too much respect for me and the organization to just wallow in failure and let things blow up. So guess what? I'm giving you this opportunity to take on this task that I know you've never done before, but I trust you, I have confidence in you and I know you're going to do great. And guess what? Of course she did. She knocked it out of the park to the point where people from other agencies were like who's that we need her. On this other thing, can we get her to come and do a detail in our office, in our unit, because she's that good?
Speaker 1:What I learned in that experience is to look for the signs, look for the nuggets, look for the breadcrumbs of someone's performance and be willing to give them those high profile projects. It doesn't matter if they haven't done them before, it doesn't matter if the stakes are high. Well, I won't say it doesn't matter. What I am saying is you have to be willing to take risks on your high performers to stretch them, otherwise they'll never be ready for higher levels of leadership.
Speaker 1:And you have to be willing to take risks on people to nurture the next generation of talent, to nurture the next group of leaders, and not be afraid that they will replace you in some way, because I think that's where leaders trip up, like they see the potential, they see the talent and other people around them, but they want to hog all the opportunities for themselves because, god forbid, susie and Joe might outperform me. And then what will the bosses think of me? Because they have risen to the occasion and they're doing a great job. And then where does that leave me? That's where people trip themselves up. So then the entire organization fails because you haven't tapped into the talents around you to really think about how can we each bring our individual talents to bear to make sure that whatever it is that we're working on is exemplary.
Speaker 2:I can't agree with you more. I've seen so many organizations go wrong. Where leaders are working hard to make sure people no cream rises to the top. Not only is that not good for you, but it's not good for the organization. I like something you said in your interaction with this employee about you needed to show them why they were great, why they were the right person for the role, and I see that a lot in my coaching practice, but I also saw that a lot in traditional workspaces of people.
Speaker 2:When you're giving them a chance, you have to remind them why they're special, like why You're really great at X. That's why I think you're the right person for this, because people are often like why me, I'm just me, I'm just no, you're the right person for this. I can see the whole organization and I'm not picking you so that you fail. How do you get paid more? Because if you fail, I fail and I don't want my job If you fail. I got to work late, I got drama, so I'm picking you because you look like the path to least resistance of success. Yes, and then I also always think about how people took a chance on me. A splendor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like people forget that, like people took a chance on you.
Speaker 1:You didn't get to where you are just because you're just so smart. That's so brilliant. You don't have to celebrate at what you do. No, someone took a chance on you.
Speaker 2:Throughout my life. People have taken a chance on me and you know I reflect back often on this an interview I had a long time ago. This was like very early in my career. I just wasn't accustomed to interviewing. I was entry level at the time and this interview started going south and the interviewer said are you multitasking? I wasn't literally multitasking, but I had just come out of a stressful work situation and I hadn't like decompressed, right. So I was kind of it was clear to this person. They said okay, look, I need you to go on a walk, I need to like shake whatever just happened.
Speaker 2:Well, I remember you telling me about yeah the person said come back, let's come back in like two hours. I'm going to pretend like we never spoke. I'm not going to hold this against you and we're just going to start over. Bring your A game. And I did. And that person still knew deep down that they had to reset and they still. I was definitely the take a chance person, yeah.
Speaker 1:And they did, and they took a chance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they got that job and I never forgot that. They took a chance on me and I delivered every single day. Yeah, and that person modeled something for me. I have done that at least three times in my career. Me too. I said, hey, look, it sounds like you're having a bad day. Let's reschedule this, because I think there's something in you. I'm looking at your resume. I've talked to the people who've referred you. You're good, but you're having a bad day and I don't want to see your career trajectory go sideways just because you know it's Tuesday and it's raining.
Speaker 2:Like let's try again and I've never, nobody's ever, failed me on that. And look, I haven't been perfect. Like there are times where I wish I'd spoken up more or I had done things differently. I'm not trying to say that I'm perfect and thinks differently. I'm not trying to say that I'm perfect, but I am trying to say that like if I just continue to operate with honesty, the universe is going to make things right for me and everybody else A hundred percent In the end. Right. I'll know when that is. It may not be today or whatever, but if I just cannot keep up with lies, I cannot keep up with games and foolishness. I just try to be honest with people. They don't always want to hear it, but that's what I try to do.
Speaker 1:And that's when you need to be honest, when they don't want to hear it. Amen.
Speaker 2:Those are facts, those are facts. Well, is there anything else you think we should mention? I feel like we've got a lot done today.
Speaker 1:I feel like we've got a lot done too. I think I would just call on our viewers and our listeners to think about someone in your life right now who's worth taking a risk on. Who should you give an opportunity to shoot their shot? How is that going to help them and how might it help you be a better leader?
Speaker 2:And how will you set them up for success? I want to remind our listeners that we are on YouTube now, so please do come over. Take a look at our channel, the Leadership Tea Podcast. We'd love it if you could listen to a couple of videos. Leave a comment and subscribe, and we will continue to work on our challenge about what can we shoot our shot on. I hope that you guys are doing the same. We really appreciate you joining us here, where we are sipping wisdom and stirring success.
