Leadership Tea
On Leadership Tea, we talk about what it takes to reach the executive level, and how to thrive when you get there. Powerful leaders share their journeys, insights, and triumphs in conversations with hosts Shelby Smith-Wilson and Belinda Jackson Farrier.
Join us every other Wednesday to be inspired by the unvarnished stories of amazing executives who know what it's like to be "the only" at the table and who have succeeded regardless. They have proven leadership experience in their respective fields, from international affairs to the private sector to academia, and want to help others create their own success stories.
Leadership Tea
Why Resilience Isn’t a Flex — And What Women Leaders Should Do Instead| S4 EP16
Belinda and Shelby host a candid conversation with a panel of high-achieving women from South Africa: Samantha Kavuma, Ayanda Nkosi, Lehlohonolo Siwundla, and Carmin Varnicker. We discuss internal barriers that can block our professional progress, such as limiting beliefs and doubting our own abilities.
We share practical leadership strategies, including the vital skill of knowing which battles are truly worth fighting, and why the word “resilience” is not the flex it seems to be. We encourage you to define your long-term vision by separating what you need from what you want, and give advice for budding entrepreneurs.
In this episode:
- Overcoming self-doubt and recognising your past achievements to shore up your confidence
- How resilience can sometimes be code for tolerating abuse
- Knowing you can’t speak up on every issue, and how to know when to speak up
- Tips for starting a coaching business
Find our guests on LinkedIn:
- Samantha Kavuma - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ssnkavuma/
- Ayanda Nkosi - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ayanda-nkosi/
- Lehlohonolo Siwundla - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lehlohonolo-s-199a7920/
- Carmin Scheepers Varnicker - https://www.linkedin.com/in/carmin-scheepers-varnicker-lion-64551727/
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What do you get? A monthly group coaching session led by the Leadership Tea Podcast hosts and monthly virtual community connection sessions, as well as leadership resources and articles.
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We publish new episodes every other Wednesday.
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Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Leadership Tea Podcast, where we talk about not only what it takes to reach the executive level, but how to thrive and survive once you get there. My name is Shelby, and I am joined by my amazing co-host, Belinda. And today we are bringing you a very special episode. It's the first time that we are kind of live coaching a group of individuals. And this is a very special group because they came onto our radar from one of our previous guests who shared with us that there was this amazing group of women in South Africa who were listening to the Leadership Tea podcast and had their own discussion group about some of the topics that we have raised here. And so we thought it would be fun to talk to them live and to coach them and to discuss with them some of the real life challenges that they are confronting in their respective industries. So without further ado, I will introduce you to our four guests for today. The first is Lisho Kornolo, Siwundla. We call her Sho for short. She is a digital product owner and a business analyst. Second, we have Ayanda Nkosi. She is a platform engineer. Our third guest is Samantha Kavuma. She is a marketing professional. And our fourth guest is Carmen Varniker. She is an agile practitioner. All of these women are amazing and authentic and vulnerable and candid in sharing some of the challenges that they're facing in their respective workplaces. I think you'll find that women across the globe have a lot more in common than we think. So without further ado, here we go.
SPEAKER_00:I really appreciate you all joining us.
SPEAKER_01:It's so cool that y'all are interested in the content that we develop and that you find use in it. You're exactly who we're thinking about when we make it. And so we feel really honored and excited. I've been telling people all week about this interview. And it means so much to us. It's so humbling to know that what we work so hard to produce isn't just going out there and landing in a black hole, that it has an impact. I wanted to start by reflecting a question that came up for many of our participants at Repose. There are things that we want to do in life or ideas that we have about where we want to go and what we want to do, but there's often something that's blocking us. And it's often something that's self-imposed, like a lie that we're telling ourselves that's keeping us from getting where we want to be. And so I'm curious, as you think about your futures and where you want to go and where you want your careers to be, what are you telling yourself that you need to stop telling yourself in order to move forward? I'm gonna start with Samantha, because you're first on my screen.
SPEAKER_04:One of the things I need to stop telling myself is that I haven't come as far as I have. It almost feels like because you're in some kind of rut that there isn't stuff to be proud of and stuff to shout out about that you've done over the past couple of years just because you're always looking so far forward. So when I am in my moments of trying to figure out what the next steps are and what I want to do going forward, I do try to be more intentional at taking moments to appreciate how I even got this far in the first place and what are the different learnings I can take from all the different seasons, the good and the bad, and what I can take and move forward with. Because some things are, you know, learnings and some things are things you can hone and like be better at. I've tried to tell myself a little bit more that you have a reason to be confident, you have a reason to be grateful, you have a reason to believe you deserve whatever is coming your way.
SPEAKER_01:Show us next on my screen.
SPEAKER_03:One lie I need to stop telling myself is that I don't know what I'm doing. The self-trust or the self-belief, you know, it ebbs and flows. Sometimes I just don't trust myself with what I'm saying with the decisions that I'm making. And when I look at the decision retrospectively, I'll go, oh, okay, that wasn't actually too bad. So I just need to trust myself a bit more.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, trust is really critical. I agree with you on that. Karma.
SPEAKER_05:I actually had to think about this one because I thought, am I lying to myself? I've never lied to myself. But I think slowing down doesn't mean falling behind. It's okay to slow down. It's okay to go into that pause. It's a bit of a slow moment. So what can I learn from you? What is the small thing I can take from here that I can use in the future?
SPEAKER_01:Amazing. The small things really matter. Agreed.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Ayanda. To be quite honest, I also thought about this quite deeply. I think for me, because I do sit from a career perspective in a very technical role. The one thing I almost always lie to myself about is that I cannot do hard things. When in fact, my track record in the past few years has shown that I actually can do very, very difficult things. I wake up in the morning and I think, oh my goodness, my job is so hard. And sometimes that does become a bit of a blocker when I do encounter some complexities, whether it's troubleshooting a production issue, or troubleshooting something as small as, you know, a team asking for assistance. But I do think that if I can get out of my head a little bit more, I can truly see that there is value in the work that I do and that I can do difficult things. I just need to almost meet myself halfway most of the time.
SPEAKER_07:All of those answers were really causing me to think about points in my own life when I've doubted myself. I was jotting down a couple of quotes that you all share. I haven't come as far as I have, but take the good with the bad. I don't know what I'm doing, but trust yourself no matter what. I cannot do hard things, but I actually can. All of those anecdotes, I think, are universal, especially with women when it comes to believing in ourselves and trying to bring excellence to everything that we do. You know, imposter syndrome can be real. And you find yourself in these spaces where you know that you're prepared, you've done everything that you need to do to show up fully in your roles. Your credentials are what they are. You've worked hard to get to where you are, and yet still there are haters. There are haters everywhere in South Africa, in the United States, all over the globe. There's no shortage of people who try to get in your head and tell you that you can't do something. How are each of you allowing yourselves to shine and to be authentic in spaces that attempt to constrain you? I'll start with Ayanda.
SPEAKER_02:What I found to be the easiest way to kind of navigate spaces like those is to look at your KPIs and make sure that you are truly hitting the mark when it comes to performance. Because more often than not, if you are performing at the levels at which you're required to perform and you are supporting your team in a way that makes sense in cases where you've got direct line reports, I find that it is so easy to kind of navigate spaces where people don't like you or people tend to doubt your abilities and that sort of thing. But it's almost always easy when it is you that is actually doing the work. You're doing the work, you are hitting the mark, your team is performing, you're showing up authentically at work. And you're also showing up in the small things. It truly does almost always translate to you shining in the office or in whatever spaces that you might occupy.
SPEAKER_07:Haters make you greater is one of the phrases that we use here in the United States. Show, what about you?
SPEAKER_03:From my side, especially when I'm feeling constrained, is trying not to take things personally. I feel a lot. Um, I'm a feeler, I'm an empath, I soak everything in. Um, yeah, it sometimes weighs heavy, and I want to, you know, fight battles on people's behalf because I believe, yeah, in doing the right thing. But what I am finding is if I'm constrained personally that I'm allowed to go into my corner for a while and sulk for lack of a better word. But in that retreat, it's just to regulate a bit and then come back feeling a bit better to deal with anything that comes my way. So I think that that does allow me to try because in a week there's multiple hits you'll take. And if I let each and every single hit get to me, I'll find myself in a space where I am, you know, in the dark and I don't want to get out. So yeah, just trying to regulate a bit and just come back punching harder.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, what you said is so true. The hits will keep coming, especially as you rise in leadership positions. The hits are more acute. The darts don't stop coming at you.
SPEAKER_03:Um, they go for the jugular.
SPEAKER_07:Exactly. Exactly. But as you said, I think it's critical to not take things personally because that will self-sabotage you and definitely constraining. Carmen, what about you? What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, on my side, it is um to show up as my true authentic self, you know, remove the emotion. Because if you're removing the emotion and you're working on facts, um, it's an easier conversation that you're having. Then you can go away and say, okay, I've dealt with it, I've got an answer. It's just showing up with that mindfulness to understand that you know what, we all are going through our own things here. And there's maybe reason as to why the situation is happening, and I maybe don't have background. So let me just stick to what I know right now. And then there's a new phrase I'm using now for for the last few weeks that you don't have to get into every moving car. The cars are gonna move, and you don't have to get into everyone. So let them go, and then you continue with your day.
SPEAKER_07:I love that. You don't have to get into every moving car. Yes, can I tell this? I I need to snap on that.
SPEAKER_06:That is a word. That is a word. All right, Samantha, what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_04:Um, a lot of my thoughts are related to everybody's, kind of in one. I'll start with what Sho said because I have a similar problem. I I'm a bit of an empath, although I try not to get involved in other people's things or speak on their behalf. But I do if I'm having the same experience, I feel like the experience amplifies mine. I'm like, see, I'm not the only one. And then I also struggle a little bit with emotional regulation. That's funny because there's a podcast we listened to where they said, don't show up as your authentic self. So when comments said that, I was like, wait. Um, and sometimes it's because there'll be situations in the office where your authentic self would do something that is not palatable in the corporate environment. So there are moments where I've had big feelings and then I've crashed out, and I'm just like, This is probably not the most palatable reaction for corporate because they expect you to be resilient, and I hate it when corporate uses that word because it just means you want to abuse me and you want me to be happy about it. Um that's kind of like that's kind of like you want to abuse me and you want to bombard me with work and with you're strong enough for this and you're strong enough for this, and sometimes I'm really not. So let's just slow our roll, and then it relates to what Common was saying in that don't get in every movie car. I actually did a leadership program, and on the first day we went to hang out with horses, horses are dirty, it was it was gross. But basically, horses are very they're led, they don't allow people, sounds, things to overstimulate them. But you had to hold the leash and make sure they go in the same direction. And then if you stop running, the horse starts running, if you slow down, the horse slows down. So it was about being a leader in that sense, but also making sure that there aren't unnecessary things in your environment that are moving your feet when you don't want your feet to be moved. So if you're at peace where you are with what you're doing and not letting something move your feet that is leading you to nowhere. Even though I have like big feelings at work and it then goes back to what Ayanda was saying, where sometimes you just have to take it back to basics. What is your KPI? What are you here to do? And just put your head down, do it, make sure it's done, and then at minimum no one can drag you for not doing your job because you met the KPI, even if you just met it, you still met it. If that is all you had to give in that moment, then you have to find a way to be okay with it, even though other people might not be.
SPEAKER_07:I feel like I gotta snap you too.
SPEAKER_01:All of you just drop in mad wisdom. No, definitely. And I I feel like some of what you all said, like just some things that jumped out at me, were sometimes resilience is code for let us abuse you and you should enjoy it. And so I think we have to be really careful about the way that we use resilience. Um, I love that we don't have to get into every moving car, right? In my world, I often describe that as like shiny thing, shiny thing, shiny thing, shiny thing. But this idea that things are moving, I don't always have to be moving with it. That we're allowed to sulk and regulate before we get back into it. And not taking things personal, but still being mindful and doing the analysis of what's happening. I think that for many of us in the workplace, it's like, yes, I'm not gonna hold on to things, I can't because there's so many things happening. But I also need to take stock of what's happening and just kind of analyze like where does this fit into the politics? And with that politics in mind, the idea of focusing on your KPIs and doing the work so that that is unimpeachable. No one can come for me on my work. So when all this other stuff is happening, it frees me up to be able to use my soft skills to analyze what's happening atmospherically. Like I I really appreciate all those things that you guys have said. Looking forward then. There are things that we need and there are things that we want. And as you uh consider the future, looking ahead, say five years, where do you need to be in five years versus where you want to be?
SPEAKER_00:We can start with uh Carmen.
SPEAKER_05:I need to have love in alignment in five years. I need to connect with my purpose, my presence, and the impact. So my goal, I would like to have my own coaching practice. I'm not yet sure about the direction, but it's more around getting not only teams but individuals to being aware of their choices that they have. And you know, to navigate things in work situations. So that is really where I need to be.
SPEAKER_01:We spend so much of our lives doing what we're supposed to do or what we're expected to do. So really connecting with that purpose is really radical in many respects.
SPEAKER_03:Where do I need to be in five years? I want to be in a space where I'm fulfilled and more secure and self-assured. I want to be in such a space that I'm unshaken or unmoved by any external force because I still remember who I am and why I am here. I think it would also link into more of the things, doing the things that make me more happy and fulfilled, which is also linked to something quite similar to what Carmen said around, you know, purpose-driven things or objectives that I can reach versus doing what I need to do to survive.
SPEAKER_01:Sometimes that lack of security can make us make decisions that are not necessarily putting us on the road where we want to be. So I think it's really significant that you said you want to be both secure and fulfilled, right? You want to be focused and clear. And security is so much a part of that. So thank you for acknowledging that.
SPEAKER_02:So for me, I truly resonate firstly with what Flo said around being fulfilled. When I thought about this question, I thought about I really just want to be happy. I need to find myself within the next five years in a space where I am excited about the work that I am doing because I am considering pivoting into a different role, but a role that will allow me to use the experience that I've gained, the technical experience that I've gained in the last eight years to do something else, to influence engineering teams, to run a department, and to eventually at some point land up in a C-suite position, which I would absolutely love. That's my, I don't want to say my end life goal, but for the most part, it's something that I am working towards. So if anything, every single step that I'm taking in the next few years will allow me to get there, will allow me to get to that point where I say, I have done all the groundwork, I've sown the seeds. And when it is time to reap, I know that I will be reaping everything that I've planted now, in the next year and a half. Currently, as an example, in my role, I don't have any direct reports. Early on in my career, some of the most fulfilling work that I've ever done was having teams and helping people reach their full potential. I would love to do that in IT. So the goal really now is to work through getting there. And hopefully in the next five years, everything will pay off in the way that I've thought about it in my head.
SPEAKER_01:For sure. I like your usage of the word happy, and that's one that we can really sit with and ask ourselves okay, it's like a good foundational word. But then what does happy look like for me? What does it mean? It almost feels like it's a wheel, and there's just many spokes that can come off of happy. So it's a very interesting place to be creative from.
SPEAKER_04:Um, Samantha. I again have a piece from everything each person said that resonated with me. So like Slo mentioned security. That's one thing that I really need to be in a place where other people's opinions don't bother me or affect me anymore. That I know that I am skilled at what I'm doing, and that I also conduct myself with the confidence that goes with being secure. I think as well, I need to be happy, is what Belinda was saying. What does happiness even look like at the moment? I don't know. But I also need to be in a place where I'm happy in a compartmentalized way, where I have my work happy and I have my outside of work happy. Because at the end of the day, happy is outside of that building. Um, so I need to be able to go there, make sure that I'm happy when I'm there, and that I leave everything there, that happiness there, and then when I go home, I'm happy at home. So there's that that I really need to work on, and and that's where I really want to need to be in five years. And then living in alignment, we all have plans. But they say when you make plans, God lost. Because recently I have been trying to make my own plans, and then God's like, ha ha, that's not for you. Ha ha, that's not for you, uh, that's not for you. And you're just sitting thinking, when is it going to be for me? I'm hoping that in five years I'm in a place where I am living in alignment with what would make me happy and what would make me feel like I am at peace in my heart with what I'm doing, but also that's in alignment with God's plan for me.
SPEAKER_01:I really like your usage of confidence as well, because I know for so many of us, it's when you let people get into your head or you let the circumstances get into your head, it almost creates like a vicious cycle of not achieving those goals, right? Like you kind of fall backwards, pairing both confidence so that you can get things done, but alignment so that you remain self-aware of where am I really supposed to be? How am I supposed to be serving? How am I supposed to be connecting with people in this world? That also feels very powerful. You can be in an amazing place in the next five years.
SPEAKER_07:What I'm loving about this dialogue is the reminder of the commonalities that exist with all of us. You can be 30-something, 40-something, 50-something. One of us on this call is there already. We won't say who. But I think, you know, the universal themes of wanting to find purpose and alignment and defining what happiness means for you and finding yourself, even if you're pivoting and reaping when it's time to reap what you've planted. I kid you not, like all of these are themes that I have been journaling about, themes that Belinda and I have been talking about, themes that came up at our repose retreat. And it's just, it's heartwarming and fascinating for me to hear all of you voice, you know, where you are in various stages of your careers and of your lives and how we just we have a lot in common. I'm gonna flip the script and give you all an opportunity to ask me and Belinda, whatever is on your heart. Is there something that you want to hear from the two of us? And I'm just gonna open it up.
SPEAKER_02:How do you stop yourself from crying at work? Sometimes you find yourself feeling attacked. How do you get your emotional intelligence to the point where you are so comfortable in having tough conversations, whether it's through criticism or it's through somebody stepping on your toes? Because it's really difficult to keep a straight face and to be professional in the workplace where you really just feel like, oh my goodness, I just want to, I just want a ball, you know?
SPEAKER_07:That's a great question, Ayanda. Fortunately, I can say that I've been able to keep my cool at times when I've wanted to cry. But there are two moments that stand out where I thought I was going to lose it. In one instance, I was the only woman in a meeting with a bunch of men, and I outranked all of them. We were discussing a project that I needed their support for. And I could tell just by their body language that they were not listening to me and they were not taking me seriously. And they kept asking, when was my boss coming to join us? And I said, Well, he delegated this meeting to me. These are the things that we're here to discuss, and I would really like to get your input on this project. And they were just very flippant with me. It got to a point where I said, okay, this meeting is over. And I got up and left. You have to know when to walk away to prevent yourself from having a meltdown. It was in that moment that I decided, you know, I don't need to take this hostile treatment. I don't need to be belittled in this way. And so I ended the meeting and I left. There was another occasion where I actually did end up crying in front of someone who was going off on me. They were accusing me of things that I had not done and had like a laundry list of things that my office was screwing up in their minds. And I was sitting there as this person was berating me and going through their list of all of the grievances and mistakes and mishaps that my office had caused, which my office had not caused, just to be clear. I'm an empath as well. And my emotion sometimes shows up as tears when I'm angry. I was extremely angry in that moment. And the tears flowed. I was angry. I was really indignant because what this person was saying to me was just patently false. I just let them go on and on and finish their tirade. And when they were done, I said, thank you for this feedback. I'll be following up with you separately. And again, I walked away. So sometimes it's hard, like you said, to regulate yourself emotionally. And that's really the only time in 26 years of working at the State Department that I allowed myself to get emotional in front of someone. But there have been tears and many other instances where I've gone into my office and shut the door, and then I called Belinda or someone else, another friend, to let that emotion out. But I would say don't be afraid to be emotional. Some of the things that we deal with are extremely heavy. Some of the attacks that we face on a regular basis, it's either gonna provoke you to want to cuss someone out or to cry. And fortunately, I've been able to remind myself, take deep breaths in those moments, and really walk away in a way where I can maintain my dignity. But I would just say there are tears. And I just try to reserve those tears in private and to call people who I can lean on, who can encourage me in those tough moments.
SPEAKER_01:I would, I would offer that the times where I have struggled with my composure at work or when it's clear that the microaggressions and the injustice of it all is at work, right? And the circle of that, the feeling of why won't you just let me be great? Right? Why won't why am I living rent-free in your head? If you would just give me space to do me, like we wouldn't, like you're creating problems, right? Like that frustration is really difficult to manage. I have tried different ways of dealing with it. I have tried to explain. I've tried, you know, I this is what you're doing, what you're seeing, this is how I'm receiving it. And this is why I think we shouldn't even be having this conversation. Like it's nonsensical. Sometimes that works with people, sometimes it doesn't. I love the how we talked about earlier, this idea of you gotta step away, you gotta regulate, you gotta whatever. When I can get away and regulate, as I've gotten older, what I've thought is, what am I gonna do with these feelings? Am I going to strategically target these feelings back at the organization and say, how can this not happen again? Like, how can I stop whatever's making me feel this way, stop it from happening? Sometimes, though, I would say often, the answer is I don't have the power to stop it. And so for me, especially as I've gotten older, is then where am I redirecting this? Is it time for a new role? Is it time for a new company? But life doesn't have to be this. Like obviously, we've reached an impasse. So I need to move forward. Like if it's that big. So that is the way I've dealt with it is to understand where are these feelings, what am I really upset about? Is it possible to change this? And if not, then what am I gonna do as a result? Because I can only control what I can control. But I can't live in a world where I'm constantly crying at work. I had a job where this was like midway through my career, where I would pull into the parking lot and all I would do, I would have to go an hour early so I could cry in the car and then go in to work. I also had a role where I would have to cry all morning before work started. And I would literally feel inflammation in my hands and my body because I was so anxious about all the random microaggressions I was about to take on. In both of those situations, I reached a point where I was like, I can't change this. So I have to change locations. I have to change me. I have to exit.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:If I can double click on changing locations, like that one example that I used where I cried in front of another executive, it was in that moment where I was like, this will never happen again. And it's time for me to move on.
SPEAKER_01:Can't change them. Can't change them. People walk into my office and say, I just can't take orders from you. Like I don't take orders from black women. Like, so what are we going to do? Right. Now, in that case, I have more control. So I can get rid of you.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Because you're not getting rid of me.
SPEAKER_01:Because you're not getting rid of me, because I'm the one getting in charge. But that's rare. So you have to figure out what's driving these things and how much control over it do you have. And then therefore, what are you going to do as a result?
SPEAKER_04:I think industries in general work in silos. Government employees work in silos. Banking people work in silos. Yesterday I went to a networking event at a bank. And I knew no one there I went alone. A lot of us that came alone all ended up sitting together at a table, and there were so many of us doing different things. One works in consulting, one works in telecoms, I work in FMCG. There's another one who works in banking, just not at that bank. And I just wondered, how do you create and curate a community that keeps you grounded and keeps you wanting to do this over and over every day? And also that keeps you wanting to help people, even the people who don't want it.
SPEAKER_07:I think when it comes to creating community, you have to be intentional. Intentional in knowing who deserves access to you and who doesn't. And I'm very clear on what I stand for, what I believe in, where I'm going, the life that I'm trying to live, and how I'm trying to live that life. And so I think I'm at a stage in my life where it's very easy for me to know right away if someone is in alignment with that and whether they are worth my time and energy and investment when it comes to letting them into my community. Belinda and I have known each other now for well over 20 years. And so we have had time to get to know one another, to really see each other at high points and low points, and to be there for one another. So I know what it means to have people show up for you because the people in my circle show up for me and vice versa. And I think that's very important. One of you mentioned earlier this facade sometimes that we think everyone is our friend and we have to lend ourselves in a way to placate people, which, you know, is true in the corporate environment. But when it comes to my personal relationships, I tend to them with care. I'm not going to just open up with everyone. You know, the conversations that I have with Belinda aren't necessarily going to be the same conversations that I have with a coworker. And as one of you said, you leave work at work. You're happy at work, you do your thing at work, you leave it there. And then when it comes time to step out of that and be in your personal space, that's a different type of happiness that looks differently. And I think I have kind of modeled my career around that, not assuming that everyone in my workspace is my friend or my ally or someone who is cheering for me or who likes me. And it's like, okay, I don't care if you don't like me. I'm going to do me. You know, I'm not going to disrespect you. I'm not going to, you know, call you out of your name or do anything untoward. But I'm going to focus on me and focus on the people that I know share my, and it's not just about sharing opinions or thoughts. It really boils down to sharing values, who is like-minded when it comes to character and integrity. I'll pause there and see what Belinda has to share.
SPEAKER_01:So one, I agree with all of that. I would also add a regret that I have from early in my career is not being more expansive with my networking and getting to know people and building community. I think that I built a strong community, but it was very industry focused. And I wish that I had expanded outward to other industries and just gotten to know people and been brave and gone to conferences and gone to talks. And like you said, Samantha, you went to the bank and you don't work at a bank, but you went to this bank thing. I just very much followed protocol or what I thought was protocol. And I very much thought that by focusing on my career and that specific industry and that specific silo, that was what I was supposed to do. So I would offer being expansive, and that showed up in many ways. Like there's a point early in my career where I realized I had a lot of like-minded mentors. And so even something like as simple as looking at my evaluation each year, I was getting feedback on that from my mentors very much already aligned with my thinking. And it wasn't until I had a mentor who was very just outside of this network who gave me feedback in his way and his language that uh it was jarring. It was like, oh, you used this word, why not use this other word? Or you say we a lot. You should say I more. No one had said that to me. I didn't have to use I all the time, but it was interesting to even think conceptually about that. So being expansive, being strategic, thinking, you know, five years from now I might want to do X, or I'm interested in XYZ. I don't know where I want to go with it, but I should get to know people doing that. Or that industry seems to be growing. I'd like to learn more about it. Let me put myself out there. So I think differentiating relationships, being strategic, and being brave about going out there to do it are critical in that idea of building community.
SPEAKER_02:I would love to know from both of you what has been the most difficult thing about your respective careers from a leadership perspective, and what has been the most fulfilling?
SPEAKER_01:Something that hindered my leadership across sectors is not believing that I was the leader that people told me I was. And it was like, oh, I really like working for you. Oh, I'd work for you anywhere. Oh, you're great. Oh, you have great ideas. I didn't really believe that. And instead, I walked into rooms focused on all of the hurdles and mountains in front of me. I needed to walk into rooms a bit more entitled, a bit more audacious, right? So that is something that has hindered my leadership in the past. I feel like it's just in the last few years that I've grown into, yeah, yeah. That Belinda that you heard about. Yeah, it's true. That's me. Yeah, let's go. I should have been her like 15 years ago. And something that's been really fulfilling is look, I love bringing people together to do difficult things, like achieving the impossible, right? I love getting a crazy assignment and knowing that I've built a team of people who can take on that crazy and I trust them. They know that they have the space to be creative. They know that it's okay if they make mistakes, we can innovate. They know that we are stronger together and that we're gonna get it done. And there are gonna be some hiccups, but we're gonna get it done together and that I will have their back, and that I know that my job is to let them be great and move things out of their way so they can be great. I love that feeling. And it is one of the things I miss about not having a large team, but that's okay because Shelby and I are growing an empire, and soon we will be able to have that great team without the yoke of corporate on our back. Just be great.
SPEAKER_07:And as usual, we're in alignment. I'm just gonna double-click on everything Belinda said. I guess that's why we make a good, a good duo. Um, the most difficult thing for me, I'll I'll just kind of rephrase what Belinda said. Owning my excellence, knowing I'm excellent and just owning it was the most difficult aspect of my career. I would say, particularly once I reached the executive level in government, I had not had people question me to my face in terms of my credentials and my experience as an entry-level professional, mid-level. It was interesting because earlier in my career, people like, yeah, you're great. This is great. You know, keep going. You're doing a wonderful job. Keep going, you're gonna be great. And then when I reached a level where I actually had some rank and authority, that was when people began being like, wait, hold on a second. You're not as great as you think you are. Who gave you permission to do X, Y, and Z? And it's like, but I thought all this time you told me I was great. Why is it that I'm now not great when all the indicators up until this point show that I am great? Dealing with that unexpected animosity and opposition, it was never blatant, but it was subtle enough for me to question why I was in certain rooms? Why was I allowed to make certain decisions? And it definitely messed with my head a bit, where it's like, oh, well, maybe I'm not supposed to be here. No, I'm supposed to be here. I'm Shelby Smith Wilson. I've done everything right. I've dotted every I crossed every T. I am more than capable, more than qualified to be in this room and other rooms. And this is why it's important to have community. This is why it's important to have people who can keep it real with you when you're falling short, but can also remind you of who you are and what you are and that you are qualified. And then I think for the most fulfilling aspect of my career, again, very similar to what Belinda said, I like building teams. I mean, that's part of the reason why we started the podcast. We actually like leading people, we like managing projects. It's something that we find fulfilling, that we get joy out of. And I would say dealing with crisis situations, Belinda and I both were fortunate to work in the 911 equivalent at the State Department called the Operations Center. And I was there at the height of the pandemic when the entire world was flipped upside down, and we were still required to show up every day 24-7 in person to continue the operations of the State Department. And it was a scary time, but it was also a fulfilling time because I had the opportunity to lead an incredibly talented, dedicated, hardworking team who just continued to show up in spite of uncertainty and personal risk, you know, when it comes to their own health. And we performed. And it was just a really fulfilling experience. And so when I think about the talent and the dedication and the commitment to public service that I had witnessed from the teams that I've led, that has been really fulfilling.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would echo all of that. I feel like that's even like an episode.
SPEAKER_01:I feel like we have time for maybe one more. Uh oh, two of you. We'll let you dig it out. We can do two more. We can do two more. Okay. We'll do two more. We'll do two more. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Cool. So I was just listening to Xiao B, and I wanted to maybe better understand because leadership doesn't really have a template, right? So you can go to all of the leadership courses, but at the end of the day, you need to define the kind of leader that you are. I was in a position where when I was going to the next level of management during the promotion process that I was told that you need to challenge the status quo more, be more vocal. And I started doing those things. And now it's, oh my goodness, you're doing too much. How do you still remain assertive without maybe stepping on too many toes, but still staying true to yourself? Because at the end of the day, you are there to do the right thing and to deliver on objectives. Yet if you are the vocal one or the one who steps on too many toes, you sometimes are deemed a bit problematic.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. But I think first you have to decide whose toes are worth stepping on. Because I think where people get caught up is they want to do too much too soon. And timing can be everything. And having the judgment and the discernment to know it's worth speaking up on this thing, as opposed to picking 15 battles to fight. Even if there is merit in fighting each of them, they're not necessarily equal. And you have to know what to prioritize and what battles are worth fighting. And what are some of the things that you need to let go? You know, you can't speak up on everything. First of all, it's exhausting. Second of all, people won't take you seriously. If you're always speaking up and pushing back, it's like, okay, well, are you just contrarian to be contrarian? What are the things that matter most to you as a leader? And I think you just need to know what is worth your voice carrying the day. And when is it more appropriate to let someone else speak up on something? And that can be scary and difficult because, you know, in your heart of hearts, you're like, I need to be the one to push back on this thing and that thing. Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe that's not the way to go. You need to figure out for yourself, what are you willing to stick your neck out on the line for? Or if there's something in writing, you know, this is something I actually coach my clients on, as well as my mentees, you know, when it comes to pushing back in written form, is this something that you are comfortable with being posted in a major newspaper? If what you just wrote ends up in a newspaper or on TikTok or it goes viral in some other social media platform, are you okay with that? And then if the answer is yes, then okay, then maybe that's the thing that you need to go ahead and push back on or speak out against. But I think it's also important to be true to yourself and be authentic in how you lead. I've been in a career and a profession, and Belinda knows this, where we are surrounded by a lot of type A, I won't say aggressive, but extroverts. Extroverts who have something to say and who are not afraid to share their opinion with you. Sometimes when you're an introvert, it can feel lonely and you can feel pressured to speak up even when you're not ready to, or even when what you have to say isn't going to move the ball. I have learned over time to use my introversion as a superpower and to not be afraid of my way of leading, which is to observe and to listen actively. But don't get it twisted. Like if I have something to say and I'm willing to put 10 toes down, I'm gonna put 10 toes down. And if something is very important to me where I feel like my contribution is needed and is unique and will move the ball forward, then you best believe I am gonna speak up. But I also know that I can be comfortable in my own skin. I've grown to be comfortable in my own skin. I let that guide my philosophy and how I approach different situations.
SPEAKER_01:I agree with that, Shelby. I I would say for me, it comes down to focus, politics, and power. I like to keep a sticky note on my computer monitor. Bottom line, this is what we stand for. This is what we're doing, this is what I got to get done. Boom. And I need to stay focused on that. So if I'm gonna raise something, get into this fight, you know, be the person that speaks up about an issue, if it's not an actual emergency, like we shouldn't do that or something's gonna blow up, right? Okay, put that aside. If it's not really in that core mission and those KPIs, like okay, good luck with that. Like, fall back. Also, sometimes silence is power. Sometimes just a few words are power, sometimes a question is power. So, really also constantly understanding what are the atmospherics, what are the dynamics, read the room, what do I need to do in this space? When I have not done that, it has been a failure. There is a role I went into where I was like, you know what, I don't want to play the politics. I'm just gonna deliver on these KPIs. I don't let everybody know I don't, and I'm not gonna speak up, I'm not gonna say anything, I'm gonna let these people do what they do. That did not bode well for me. I should have spoken up strategically. I could have, I just chose not to. So it's being strategic, being clear on what's worth talking about, and really being clear on what the power dynamics and the politics are of this space.
SPEAKER_05:What guidance would you offer to someone like me who wants to now launch a coaching practice and that is unsure of where to begin, what direction to go?
SPEAKER_01:Just do it. Don't overthink it. There's a lot of things out here that will tell you think through this and define that and but there are some things that you can't best define until you experience it, until you do it. I have a whole PowerPoint presentation about what I wanted my coaching practice to be. This was something I developed like three years ago, and that is not where I am today, right? Once I got out there and I started doing things and I saw both kind of what the people need from me and what I also give well to people. The other advice I would say is that wherever you can get learning, learn, right? So I listen to a lot of business podcasts. I use a lot of the resources that my local government offers for people who want to start businesses. I go to business events and talk to people about their experiences. I try to passively and actively understand what it means to run a business because, yeah, you should learn how to be a coach, but you are also gonna have to learn how to run a business. You think you know how because you've been working in business, but it's different when it's you. And so really just immersing myself in those worlds, I think is really important. And then also just not overthinking, not allowing perfection to get in the way of just doing.
SPEAKER_07:I agree with all of that. And I would add something Belinda touched on earlier, which is networking, talking to people. If you overthink, if you try and over script and try and have your business plan and everything written out to a T, that's going to get in the way of you really being expansive and allowing yourself an opportunity to really think outside the box to make your business all that it can be. You have to start before you're ready, I think. And some of the answers will be answered as you go along. The more you talk to people, the more you network, the more you hear about what is this coaching business like? What clients are they serving and what models are they using? And oh, maybe I can adapt that to my style and to the people that I'm trying to reach. I think the more that you talk to people and put yourself out there and attend conferences, have coffees with people who are already coaching, find people who are already doing what you think you want to do, and that'll help you really streamline. Is that really the thing that I want to do? Like Belinda said, you know, she had a whole plan in place that doesn't really match what she's doing right now. And again, I think the more that you expose yourself to what people are already doing in the coaching industry, the more you will get to whatever your niche is. And it'll become clearer. The clarity will come, you know, as you network, as you find out what other people are doing, what works, what might not work for your interests and your passions. Really, you just have to put yourself out there and start, start now, would be my ultimate advice. I do want to ask one kind of fun question to each of you. Obviously, you are fans of the Leadership Tea podcast, and our podcast is the best podcast that you're listening to right now. But if you could give our listeners another recommendation of other podcasts that you might be listening to, what are your recommendations?
SPEAKER_03:I listen to a lot of Esther Perell. I absolutely love her, Diary of the CEO, Therapy for Black Girls as well. I think those are probably my top three most listened to a bit of Jay Shetty as well.
SPEAKER_04:So similarly, I have a lot of Diary of the CEO as well as a bit of On Purpose by Jay Shetty. If you're spiritual, I listen to Joel Austin. He does daily podcasts. So a little bit of the spirit and a little bit of serious.
SPEAKER_02:I would say pretty much Diary of a CEO as well. We play that quite a lot in the house. Even my daughter knows that that guy is a favorite. Like Samantha said, you know, if you listen to spiritual typings, I listen to quite a lot of um, not necessarily podcasty, but more sermon-like. I love Sarah Jake's. She's incredible. And I love her teaching. So, you know, sometimes if you feel a bit misaligned, it's really good to get some sort of grounding with something that is a bit more spiritual before you get back into the corporate side of um corporate side of things.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, none of mine is new. It's the positive mindset.
SPEAKER_03:I think the one I actually forgot to mention is Pever Noah's podcast, What Now. I find that quite fascinating because he brings the South African element.
SPEAKER_06:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:And he's also going through his experience with living in the States. And yeah, just balancing the two. It's quite enjoyable. I do like his podcast as well.
SPEAKER_01:I've been listening to that more and more too. Indeed. Well, look, thank you all so much. This has just been an incredible episode. I feel like I've learned a lot. I'm walking away with some things to think about. I love this community that we've built together with each other, and I can't wait to see where it all goes. So I appreciate you all. I want to thank our listeners for listening to us today. Please like and subscribe wherever you are. Thank you for sipping wisdom and stirring success with us.
